Gibt es überhaupt einen Markt für Ledger Recover?
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Ledger, es scheint, dass Sie damit einverstanden sind, den guten Willen der “Hardcore”-Benutzerschaft zu opfern, um eine hypothetische Menge von Leuten anzusprechen, die eine Art Hybridlösung zwischen Selbst- und Fernverwahrung wollen. Ich bin mir sicher, dass Sie Marktforschung betrieben haben (richtig???), aber ich bezweifle immer noch, dass die Größe dieses zukünftigen Kundenstamms groß genug ist, um es wert zu sein.
Wenn ich mit dem durchschnittlichen Boomer sprechen würde, der sich nicht wohl dabei fühlt, Bitcoin sicher zu verwahren, würde ich ihm wahrscheinlich einfach sagen, dass er sich über Paypal mit dem Preis auseinandersetzen soll, oder ihn sogar auf einer vergleichsweise unauffälligen inländischen Börse wie Coinbase oder Gemini mit einem 2FA-Login verwahren soll. Irgendwann, wenn sie einen großen Stapel haben, würde ich vorschlagen, dass sie einen großen Teil davon in einem Tiefkühllager aufbewahren.
Ich weiß, dass es gefährlich ist, Münzen auf einer Börse zu lagern, selbst wenn die Börse seriös ist, und dass Leute, die stattdessen die Selbstverwahrung nutzen, ihre Schlüssel durch Fahrlässigkeit verlieren könnten. Ich verstehe also, warum Sie eine Art dritte Option für die Menschen schaffen wollen. Das Problem ist, dass Ihre Lösung die meisten negativen Aspekte der anderen Strategien für die Benutzer beibehält:
* Sie erfordert die Vorabkosten und die relativ technisch versierte Einrichtung einer Hardware-Geldbörse.
* Aber sie kostet auch monatlich, wie eine Versicherung.
* Sie erfordert jedoch KYC und die Haftung von Dritten, wie eine Börse. Ebenso ist sie Gegenstand von Regierungsmaßnahmen.
* Aber der Nutzer hat immer noch die persönliche Verantwortung, dass seine Seed Phrase nicht aus seinem Haus gestohlen wird. Ich vermute, Ihre Versicherung deckt die Fehler des Endnutzers nicht ab.Ich behaupte nicht, dass niemand diesen Kompromiss für lohnenswert halten wird. Aber kann jemand sagen, dass es besonders überzeugend klingt? Können Sie sich vorstellen, dass irgendjemand diese Kombination von Überlegungen für ein interessantes Produkt oder Angebot halten würde?
Ich bin Produktdirektor und Designer im wirklichen Leben. Eine der Faustregeln lautet, dass ein neues Produkt weitaus besser sein sollte als das, was die Leute vorher gemacht haben. Sagen wir, 10 Mal besser. Ledger Nano und Ledger Live entsprachen definitiv dieser Regel, als sie herauskamen. Sie hatten im Grunde nur einen Konkurrenten (Trezor) und Ihre UX und Ästhetik waren besser als deren.
Ledger Recover ist nicht so; es ist nur ein Mittelweg zwischen den bestehenden Alternativen, und es ärgert jeden, der nur einen kalten Speicher wollte.
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Totally agree with the OP. I simply cannot believe that this will be a successful product in terms of subscriber numbers and to be honest I can’t quite believe that they think this is “for the next 100 million people onboarding to crypto”. Quite what the solution is to make self custody simpler I’m not sure – probably some kind of solution built into Apple devices (for example).
I genuinely think they have killed the company with this botched launch, albeit it may be a slow death.
Personally I am not concerned about the security of my keys (with recover not enabled), but will be moving to another hardware wallet at some point as Ledger is no longer a company I trust or want to deal with. Replacing the current CEO may go some way to alleviating my concerns.
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A few recent quotes/responses from Ledger:
“If, for you, your privacy is of the utmost importance, please do not use the
product. For sure.” -Pascal Gauthier“The KYC risk is mitigated by the 50k$ insurance of your funds. If you have more, the service is not for you.” (@murzika)
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So, start tallying up all the reasons why *not*… cost, security, privacy, risk/reward, and you do have to wonder, who *is* it actually for?
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Yes a market exists. But it should be a diff product. And it should require physically closing a manual switch on the device. Like an old 5.25” floppy disk had a write protect tab. You have to physically cut a part in order for the secret to be able to get out.
That’s how it should be designed.
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Yes there is a market for Ledger Recover. It’s not marketing towards people like you and me.
It’s marketed towards people who heavily rely on banking services and whatnot. Ledger Recover is meant for peace of mind knowing that you and 2 other entities have a backup of your seed-phrase just in case something goes wrong.
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I’ve been critical of the news but maybe I’ve been looking at it wrong. What if they designed this service to be almost obviously awful? The narrative on cold wallets has been lazy for too long. People have had this false impression that they were untouchable and it made them complacent. Now that has changed. This recovery service is so tone deaf that it makes me wonder if Ledger isn’t soft snitching so that people can take proper precautions vs some upcoming regulations.
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Typical Client Profile:
Coinbase: “Normie” with up to $250,000 who can’t trust themselves with self storage security.
Ledger Recovery: “Normie” with up to $50,000 who can’t trust themselves with self storage security.
Insured Amounts:
Coinbase: $250,000–FDIC coverage
Ledger Recovery: $50,000–some private insurer
(https://thefinancialgeek.com/blog/is-coinbase-fdic-insured/)Annual Fees:
Coinbase Wallet Annual fee: $0
Ledger Recovery Annual fee: $120
(https://www.brokerage-review.com/crypto/fees/coinbase-cost.aspx)Plastic Gadget Cost:
Coinbase: OPTIONAL 2fA, Yubi Key, $50
Ledger Recovery: Mandatory, $149-$279
(https://www.coinbase.com/blog/coinbase-now-supports-security-keys-for-2-factor-authentication-on-mobile)KYC:
Coinbase: Yes
Ledger Recovery: Yes
So the perfect client for Ledger Recovery is someone with a passing interest in crypto, who doesn’t have more than $50,000, and would like to spend $149-$279 for a Ledger device, and pay $120 per year for Ledger Recovery, instead of accomplishing the EXACT SAME THING with an $250,000 FDIC insured Coinbase account for free, and at most a $50 Yubikey 2Fa dongle.
According to Pascal Gauthier, there are evidently 100 million of these poor dumb people who want a $369 upfront cost ($149 Nano X and $120 first year subscription) and $120 per year trailing cost instead of getting the EXACT SAME SERVICE with 5x the account protection, no obligation to buy a gadget and no fees from, for this example, a Coinbase account.
According to common sense, good judgement and me, he is a nut case.
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Yes, I think there is and will be a market. Not from the hardcore user recommendations but people stumbling onto Ledger via searches, social media, and news articles.
The general mass doesn’t really think of security consequences, they’ll likely see it as Ledger having an option to recover vs others not having. Unless other wallets follow suit too.
For me, the idea of recovery is not the problem. It’s the method, the way forward should have been Shamir backup or account Abstraction with social (friends/family) recovery and not companies. The current offering seems to be the faster horse in Henry Ford’s quote “If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses”
Edit: I do agree with you that the Recovery feature is way too many steps and might just convince people to stick to exchanges. Unless Ledger makes it seamless which I think is possible. Plus I’m sure more people will burn at exchanges in the future and rush for alternatives like a hardware wallet with “Recover”.
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firstly **I AM NOT GOING TO USE LEDGER RECOVER AND WILL LIKELY NEVER NEED TO.**
I know how to /crypto.
**my parents (old) and my brothers (who have no idea how crypto works) have told me that they are going to sign up as SOON as it’s available.**
they want self-custody but also they have said they don’t get the 24 word thingy and they want to have re-assurance. ledger recover was and is this option.
**also lets go back to that word there: “OPTION”.**
**if u do not want to user Ledger recover, u can choose not to.**
I’m not going to use it, but both of my siblings and my parents will and they have been asking for this feature for like a year now coz they don’t get crypto.
**trust me I would not use Recover but that is because I understand crypto and feel no need to subscribe. everyone is different – for some people – this is what they were waiting for.**
people make ledger out to be so bad but don’t realize maybe they’re just trying to actually help the noobies out (and I’m grateful, I’ve tried to explain for years how to self-custody and my family says it’s too much – then blame me when they miss out on gains).
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There is for sure a market for custodial services, or “crypto banks”, for people that just want to have crypto somewhere on an account and not bother with anything. This consumer group doesn’t want and doesn’t need to buy a hardware wallet. They do not want to fiddle with addresses, keys, seed phrases, varying transaction fees, or whatever. They can just leave it on existing banks, brokers, exchanges, or custodial services. No need to buy a 100 USD hardware and then pay a whopping additional 120 USD/a for that. What the world needs would be regulated banks that store crypto in cold storage for their customers.
These are two completely different paradigms and two completely different consumer groups but Ledger somehow wanted to force these mutually exclusive paradigms together into a product with the disadvantages of both.
Instead, Ledger could just have built up a custodial service that is completely independent of the HW wallet business. Instead of nuking the latter.
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I’ve been extremely critical of Ledger after this news broke, and I’ve actually moved on, I’m getting out of the Ledger ecosystem for good. No need for Recover, no need for closed source firmware or taking the word of their reps on Twitter about how their security works.
With that said, I think there is a HUGE market for Recover, and a huge overall benefit to crypto for it. Why? For the average schmoe, the biggest risk is not some hooded hacker stealing their crypto. It’s being bad about security and losing their own keys. Keeping the seed online, not writing it down correctly, leaving it out somewhere on a sticky note. Mainstream users are not paranoid /r/ledgerwallet redditors. And having a system that can more-or-less-securely recover keys is huge.
Let’s be honest, as much as this sub talks down on “banksters” and the failures of the traditional finance system, that system powers the globe, and it does so just fine, all things being equal. We rely on trusted systems and parties all the time, and for all their faults, they do the job in the vast majority of cases. Recover is just going to be a part of that, and who knows, maybe it’ll play some small part in the transition to fully trustless systems. But overall, I think it’ll do more good than harm for most people.
It’s just not for me.
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